Chicago S-T: Borla thinks of her voice as...

Topics not related to Diana Krall

Moderator: Bud

Chicago S-T: Borla thinks of her voice as...

Postby Bud on 03 Sep 2004, 15:16

Are there unique voices in today's jazz world, particularly among the "Top 40" jazz sensations?

Borla laughs hard, and the sound is hearty and contagious. "Oh, you mean as in Norah Jones and Diana Krall? The good news is that these women brought a lot of people to the door. The bad news is that their music is admittedly very hybrid -- not attached to any jazz improvisatory tradition. It is, unfortunately, too packaged, driven not by those with jazz roots, rather by those who seek youthful images to sell lots of albums.


I can agree with this characterization of NJ, but definitely not DK. Just another ill-informed comparison between the two. Borla needs to spend more time listening to Diana.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/entertai ... rla02.html
User avatar
Bud
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2162
Joined: 19 May 2004, 18:42
Location: Northern VA, just outside of Washington, DC

Re: Chicago S-T: Borla thinks of her voice as...

Postby Rémi on 03 Sep 2004, 15:54

Bud in Virginia wrote:Borla needs to spend more time listening to Diana.


And also more time to get real informations about Diana! :x

It makes me well laugh when I read this kind of stupid quote: "The bad news is that their music is admittedly very hybrid -- not attached to any jazz improvisatory tradition". It is obvious that she knows anything about Diana and her work.
I would advice her to read the Jérôme Plasseraud article before churning out such a bullshit. (Sorry to be so harsh girls)
User avatar
Rémi
Webmaster
Webmaster
 
Posts: 598
Joined: 19 May 2004, 11:26
Location: Limoges, France

Postby Bud on 08 Sep 2004, 04:44

She does have a website:

http://www.janiceborla.com/

Its disappointing that she is a jazz educator. As the membership of this board (and its prior incarnations) have shown, there are lots of musicians or musician wannabes that are fans of DK.

With that said, maybe Ms. Borla is worth a listen anyway...
User avatar
Bud
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2162
Joined: 19 May 2004, 18:42
Location: Northern VA, just outside of Washington, DC

Postby JUSTADKFAN on 08 Sep 2004, 23:50

Very stupid comment from Ms. Borla

May be Ms. Borla envies Diana's success. I was not even aware of Borla's existence...

Regads

Armando
JUSTADKFAN
Peeled Grape
Peeled Grape
 
Posts: 25
Joined: 09 Jul 2004, 01:38

Everybody Back off

Postby mark in saskatchewan on 11 Sep 2004, 07:38

Ok....I gotta stop this one! :evil:

I know Janice personally. Her husband is Jack Mouse, who was a drummer for the stan Kenton big band....my brother studied drums with Jack for years.

Janice is, and will always be, an AMAZINGLY talented jazz artist. And I totally agree with her in her thoughts. Yes, I admit Diana does offer a great deal----but Janice has far more experience, and years in the Jazz world. She is the real thing! she is an artist, a teacher, a genius, and a truly wonderful person.

First and foremost--before you start to bash her look at her experience, and realize just exactly who you are bashing. She is a jazz purist! Someone who has seen the highs and lows of jazz and doesn't want to put up with the fact that jazz only got trendy when you had people show up for the commercial side of it.

Not only that, listen to her voice. For you to all just jump on her because she is simply critizing Diana is petty. And for you to say you are saddened to see that she is a jazz educator---she is one of THE BEST jazz vocal coaches and has helped make North Central College renowned for its jazz vocal program.

To be honest, I though this board was better than name calling and mudslinging. Some of you who claim she "obviously knows nothing"--well isn't that hypocritical, as you "obviously know nothing" about her or her career.
Its really disappointing to see people take shots at someone just because they don't share the exact same view as you.....that's really sad. I think there's a word for it...i respect you all too much to use that word.
mark in saskatchewan
DK Newbie
DK Newbie
 
Posts: 18
Joined: 04 Jul 2004, 06:00

Postby Rémi on 11 Sep 2004, 09:19

Some of you who claim she "obviously knows nothing"--well isn't that hypocritical, as you "obviously know nothing" about her or her career.

That "some" person has a name and it's me. So call me by my name.

Its really disappointing to see people take shots at someone just because they don't share the exact same view as you.....that's really sad. I think there's a word for it...i respect you all too much to use that word.

This is not what I said. I wrote in bold:
The bad news is that their music is admittedly very hybrid -- not attached to any jazz improvisatory tradition

That Janice Borla may be a great Jazz singer and Jazz educator, my comment was not about that.
I still don't understand why she said - according to what I have understood (but maybe my english is not perfect) - that Diana's music is not attached to any Jazz improvisatory tradition, which means, according to me, that she has clearly no Jazz roots.
That's why I said that I don't think that person knows nothing about Diana.

So, either I have misunderstood her and I apologize, either I have well understood her quote and I need an explanation.
User avatar
Rémi
Webmaster
Webmaster
 
Posts: 598
Joined: 19 May 2004, 11:26
Location: Limoges, France

the improvisation comment

Postby mark in saskatchewan on 11 Sep 2004, 18:15

Obviously Remi unless I call Janice and ask I can't get her exact thoughts. But if its the same kind of idea she's talked about before---what she misses in these new artists is that the jazz improvisers of the past could get up and do a concert have a new set list every single time, could sing any song--not just something on their album--and it would be completely different every time. Janice actually thinks Diana has a good voice, she just feels that it would be so cool to hear Diana get up and just to an impormtu show. not planned, not rehersed, just off the top of their heads.

I'm sorry if my post seems a little angry. And to be honest, I guess I kind of was. But, this was a slam at someone I actually know, and an important part of the music world is being able to take criticism and learn from what others are saying...and sometimes on here when there is someone who criticises Diana we shoot them down because they don't agree with us.
Get what i'm trying to say? I can remember seeing Janice perform when I was little, and I remember the crowd just shouting out song names, and she and the band did any song anyone wanted...not any song that she had recorded....ANY song lol. it was amazing to watch
mark in saskatchewan
DK Newbie
DK Newbie
 
Posts: 18
Joined: 04 Jul 2004, 06:00

Postby jazzanddianafan on 12 Sep 2004, 18:49

I agree, Mark.... the board sometimes has a 'knee-jerk' reaction to anyone that is percieved as bashing Diana. Some of that may well be going on here. However, we all must be accountable for the words we use, especially when talking to the press. That first quote taken from the article (by the way, the link doesnt work any longer) reminded me of something Elvis Costello might say.... very 'off the cuff', very pretentious, and very wrong.... As we all know, Diana has legitimate jazz credentials, and no one is packaging Diana other than Diana, and I really don't think Diana is "seeking youthful images to sell lots of albums".

On the other hand, it appears that Diana is often not very improvisational in her performance. She tends to stick to a well rehearsed playlist, and although she sometimes plays around within the structure of the song, I have rarely heard her go too far astray. Those are all legitimate observations, and Borla has a point with regard to that aspect of 'the jazz tradition'. But to make a broad swipe of a statement which lumps DK in with Norah Jones and dismisses them both as 'very hybrid', does not show the understanding and inclusiveness one would hope to see in a teacher of jazz.
User avatar
jazzanddianafan
Big Foot
Big Foot
 
Posts: 309
Joined: 20 May 2004, 00:42
Location: Eugene, Oregon

Full article

Postby Bud on 12 Sep 2004, 20:47

Borla thinks of her voice as one more instrument

September 2, 2004

BY LISA FRYDMAN Staff Reporter

Jazz vocalist Janice Borla, in her own words, is "an instrumentalist trapped in a singer's body." But no longer. Sunday at the 26th Chicago Jazz Festival, Borla will sing her own brand of jazz sans lyrics, setting her "inner horn" free.

"Jazz is an instrumental art form," Borla says from her Naperville home. "For this performance, I wanted to jump into the pool, to capture the interactive process. A voice without words has a different color. Like my latest album, 'Agents of Change,' I'm going to be performing some of the tunes without lyrics, singing the lines as a horn player would.

"Some people don't feel it's appropriate for vocalists to improvise, but spontaneous interaction between musicians is at the heart of jazz. I know I'm taking a risk. But it's high time for it to happen."

Borla, unlike many vocalists, is clear that when she sings, she is a team player. In fact, she prefers to discuss the instrumentalists who are joining her at Sunday's gig: Art Davis (trumpet), Dan Haerle (piano), John McLean (guitar), Larry Kohut (bass) and Borla's husband, Jack Mouse (drums). "I am really singing for and with my fellow musicians. ... When that clicks, the audience is going to get a better performance."

Borla, who is in her 50s but looks at least a decade younger (thanks to yoga and pilates), has been called Chicago's best-kept secret. But in the past year, she's had a coming-out party of sorts. "Agents of Change" was selected as the No. 1 jazz album of 2003 by WBEZ-FM, and has enjoyed wide critical acclaim and extensive international airplay.

And last November, "The News Hour with Jim Lehrer," and HDNET-TV, in a 30-minute PBS-produced documentary, highlighted perhaps Borla's strongest gift -- her devotion to teaching. Both shows focused on the Janice Borla Vocal Jazz Camp.

Founded in 1989, the camp provides an educational and nurturing environment for aspiring jazz vocalists in an intensified, week-long course, drawing a vast number of singers, musicians and educators from around the world. Borla is also on the faculty of the Jazz Studies Program at North Central College in Naperville, where she teaches vocal jazz improvisation and jazz history.

"I love teaching," she says. "I tell my students, above all, to be prepared, and once you are, then you can take all the risks. Those days are gone when all you needed was a great voice, and simply to show up onstage and say, 'My talent will carry me.'

"In the old days, jazz musicians learned their craft on the street. Today we're more sophisticated, more competitive. Vocalists need to keep up; they need to know jazz repertoire, history, and theory in order to participate as a full player. Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan are the exceptions. The real jazz innovators are the instrumentalists."

Borla began her vocal training at age 12. She earned a bachelor's degree in music from Barat College in Lake Forest, augmenting her vocal training with study at Northwestern University. While attending the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign for graduate study, she became a member of the Ineluctable Modality, a 12-voice touring chamber ensemble that performed avant-garde "new music" by such contemporary composers as Mauricio Kagel, Morgan Powell and Iannis Xenakis.

Are there unique voices in today's jazz world, particularly among the "Top 40" jazz sensations?

Borla laughs hard, and the sound is hearty and contagious. "Oh, you mean as in Norah Jones and Diana Krall? The good news is that these women brought a lot of people to the door. The bad news is that their music is admittedly very hybrid -- not attached to any jazz improvisatory tradition. It is, unfortunately, too packaged, driven not by those with jazz roots, rather by those who seek youthful images to sell lots of albums."

Her voice waxes firm. "Jazz is art music and should never be treated like pop. I've been lucky in a way, free to do what I want, without commercial constraints, nurturing the music in my own time," she says.
User avatar
Bud
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2162
Joined: 19 May 2004, 18:42
Location: Northern VA, just outside of Washington, DC

Postby Bud on 12 Sep 2004, 21:24

I'm quite sure that if DK wanted to do a free-for-all concert, just reacting to audience requests -- she could, and quite well. Diana alone with her piano - it would be a show that I'd pay extra to see! My question - what established artists in any genre perform this way? If Janice chooses to be critical of Diana for not being "improvisational" in this regard, then it seems to apply to nearly all performers.

One of my early thoughts to this improvisational issue was that she was observing that Diana doesn't scat, which is pretty much true. But from further commentary it seems that Janice's criticism goes deeper, that she contends that Diana isn't an improvisationalist in the tradition of great jazz artists, and with that I respectfully disagree. Listen to Live in Paris - or better yet, listen to Live in Paris tracks that she's recorded on other CDs, and then compare how different her interpretation is each time. I don't buy that Diana isn't firmly grounded in an improvisational tradition - she is!

As for Diana's voice - yes it is great. But she brings alot more to the table than just her voice. Its the combination of her voice, her piano, and what she does with them - together - that makes her into such a powerhouse, in my opinion.

I have no doubt that Janice has done a lot of wonderful things and is a great teacher and educator. And I plan to give her a closer listen. But I'm still disappointed that she would make the statements she does about Diana, because they don't seem to reflect a studied consideration of Diana's talents, repertoire, and musical education...
User avatar
Bud
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2162
Joined: 19 May 2004, 18:42
Location: Northern VA, just outside of Washington, DC

Postby mark in saskatchewan on 12 Sep 2004, 23:14

bud--if you go to see oscar peterson in concert...you get improvisation every time. or if you go to see george shearing, you get to see an artist who walked out on stage and didn't even know what his playlist would be.

From knowing Janice, I know how she feels. Jazz is an art form. Jazz is, almost by definition meant to be never the same twice. Jazz does not live in recordings...true jazz can only be found in live performance.

I think part of it is her view of what jazz should be. I as a classical concert pianist have the same feelings when it comes to classical music. I think groups like Bond, or people like Josh Groban are absolutely awful because they are bastardizing what classical music truly is. It is a high art form that takes extreme dedication and many years of work. BUT I think they're wonderful because they have brought people to the classical world. The have popularized classical music. Just like Diana and Norah have popularized jazz. Its not jealousy, its not envy, its a feeling that "well yes that is lovely, but if you like that then you should definately try this out."

With the recording oppertunities we have, you can't hear improvisation on a cd. Even comparing live to recorded. I have been to two of Diana's concerts one day after the other----and they were almost identical. That's fine--wonderful even. Because that is what a great popular artist does--goes out night after night and puts on the show their crowd expects. But I have been to see Jamie Cullum twice now, and got a completely different world. His cd is even recorded live...not found from bits and piece on the cutting room floor. So there are lots of artists out there still trying to achieve that same niche as those giants of jazz who are no more.

I'm not trying to argue that diana isn't a great artist. She is. But to me she will probably proove her jazz cred. in the future years to come, as she leans away from commercial jazz and gets to truly loving the stage and the moment.
(also, keep in mind that a great deal of jazz artists don't like Diana and Norah, for the same reason that janice stated :()
mark in saskatchewan
DK Newbie
DK Newbie
 
Posts: 18
Joined: 04 Jul 2004, 06:00

Postby Bud on 20 Sep 2004, 03:37

There are quite a few undercurrents here...

- I've been to DK concerts on two consecutive nights too. Although the set list was similar, what she (and the rest of her group) did with each song was different. It goes without saying that improvisation comes in a lot of different forms - not just whether or not you're playing to a set list. Truth is, I have a feeling Janice and Diana may have a very similar viewpoint on jazz as an art form.

- I'd suggest that its more accurate to call Diana's music "accessible" rather than "commercial." Commercial implies that what Diana is doing is driven by $$, and I see no evidence for that. If she were commercial, she would have sought some formula that worked and just stayed with it. But look at her history. She was successful with WILIYE, and then she issued a stylistically different TLOL, for which she received a fair amount of criticism. She then came out with LiP, which was her first live album. Then she took an *enormous* risk with GiTOR, a big part of which she wrote on her own, which she'd done only in a very limited way before. If money were the object, these sorts of twists and turns don't make much sense. For what its worth, I consider Norah's music commercial - I can't really hear much difference between her two albums. Just another reason why I don't buy the comparisons between Diana and Norah.

- I consider myself something of a jazz purist. DK is not my first exposure to jazz - I've been a jazz fan for around 30 years. I'm especially a fan of the early 60s material of Miles, Coltrane, and Herbie Hancock (one of my all-time favorite albums is Maiden Voyage -- an album from which Diana quotes on TLOL in The Night We Called It a Day, but i digress). I've been fortunate to have been able to see some of the all-time greats - Ella once, Sarah Vaughn on multiple occasions, Betty Carter, Count Basie, Miles, and more. I only bring this up to make this point - given her albums and the numerous times I've heard her live, I have no doubt about her jazz credentials. I don't see where she has to prove anything to anyone. But my opinion doesn't count for much - its more important to recognize the giants who brought her to the world's attention in the first place, such as Ray Brown and Jeff Hamilton. And to remember who her key mentors were, such as Jimmy Rowles and Rosemary Clooney. And to keep in mind the high quality sidemen she's attracted, such as Christian McBride and Russell Malone. Personally, I hear echoes of the great jazz artists - presented in a fresh way - in what Diana does -- which is why I think I've been so deeply drawn to her music...
User avatar
Bud
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 2162
Joined: 19 May 2004, 18:42
Location: Northern VA, just outside of Washington, DC

Postby mark in saskatchewan on 20 Sep 2004, 06:27

I will agree with all said...if we could possibly stop being quite so quick to judge those who might not like diana. (i recall on the old old board getting rid of a post about some words christian mcbride shared with an interviewer about DK)

i think everyone agrees that each person has the right to their own opinion. I normally wouldn't have batted an eye at a post like this, but when its someone I know I couldn't ignore it.
mark in saskatchewan
DK Newbie
DK Newbie
 
Posts: 18
Joined: 04 Jul 2004, 06:00

Postby Coda on 22 Sep 2004, 04:46

I've read these posts with interest. I don't know Ms. Borla but she sounds like an innovative and highly respected jazz vocalist. Mark, does Ms. Borla also play an instrument during peformances? Just curious. I didn't get that impression from the posts on this thread.

I remember in the past reading that Diana's jazz influences for your performances have been musicians who would sing and play piano together, such as Nat King Cole, Shirley Horn, Carman McRae. And with those who play the piano as well as sing, they often improvise through their fingers more than through their voices.

For the piano playing singers, I think the improvising impulse is there, but it's just expressed differently from that of a cutting edge jazz vocalist who can focus exclusively on her voice, if I understand the situation correctly.
Coda
Black Crow
Black Crow
 
Posts: 1275
Joined: 20 May 2004, 21:54
Location: Michigan, USA

Postby mark in saskatchewan on 23 Sep 2004, 08:11

yes actually she does play many instruments. piano, flute, sax, drums, etc. in her shows she usually only sings, part of that comes tho from the fact that her band mates have been with her forever, or are students of her's or her husband's.

i do remember janice playing piano while singing tho.
I agree diana has much more improvisation at the piano...i guess maybe i should have just left this post alone and not paid attention. i would hope if one of us were on the norah board or any other board and someone took a shot at diana we'd defend her....i'm just tryin to do that for janice.
mark in saskatchewan
DK Newbie
DK Newbie
 
Posts: 18
Joined: 04 Jul 2004, 06:00

Postby Coda on 23 Sep 2004, 14:45

Hi, Mark: Well, it sounds as if Ms. Borla is a musician's musician!

I just wanted to add a little to the idea of musicians who are riding popular trends (when you mentioned Josh Groban and classical music). By the way, I've studied classical piano, too, and unfortunately, the most complicated thing I've been able to play is Chopin's Nocturne in B Major. I know it's a very difficult form and I have a lot of respect for those who can play it. I also respect the jazz musicians who have the music theory and ability to improvise. I'm trying to learn that, but I guess it's taking me a while to sink in.

This is going off on a tangent, but it's about popularizing certain music. Our family went to the Disco music exhibit recently at The Henry Ford Museum here in the Detroit area. (Everyone warned us that there would be some "inappropriate" exhibits for kids, so we tried to keep them away from the more adult-theme exhibits.) Just to see how far the disco trend went, there was a case with a Donny Osmond disco record and a child's record player decorated with Disco Pooh! But what really blew my mind was a bin of disco music, with not only the disco Fifth of Beethoven and the disco Star Wars theme, but also disco Frank Sinatra and disco Ethel Merman! (I had no idea they tried to do disco!) And speaking of Star Wars, my boys now have found on the web a version of a gangsta-rap Star Wars with cartoon video attached! (It's a stitch, by the way!) All we need now is jazz Star Wars!
Coda
Black Crow
Black Crow
 
Posts: 1275
Joined: 20 May 2004, 21:54
Location: Michigan, USA

Postby jazzygal karla on 25 Sep 2004, 09:28

I'm no mind-reader. I'm no jazz expert. I don't personally know Borla or Krall.

But I will be honest when I say that unfortunately, whenever I've attended a Diana Krall concert, I am convicned that 80% are there to only hear her play 'Peel Me a Grape'.

They are not interested in hearing improvisation. This only confuses the average listener. They don't understand it. They won't enjoy it.

They want a nicely packaged product.

They don't want to pay $80 plus dollars to hear something foreign to their experience - something they probably think their 2-year old can reproduce if given the chance to 'pound away' at a piano.

So...

What is a serious musician like Diana Krall to do when the adoring public does not always 'get' her music? Her new tunes from 'The Girl in the Other Room' were met with rather a lukewarm response when she was in Calgary. It was only when she got to the more well-know 'standards' that the crowd was appreciative. And many of them were probably wondering what in blazes she was doing when she started off the night with what I can only assume was 'Sometimes I Just Freak Out'.

Diana may argue that she does the music she wants to do. Good. I love the GitOR album dearly. It differs from albums like SO and OTYH and AFY.
Again, good. I like to see an artiste progress in her musical endeavours.

What I don't want is a human jukebox. All those other folks who want to hear 'Peel Me a Grape' can stay home and listen to LS. I want a Diana that can showcase her talent at the keyboard, unencumbered by an audience that will most likely feel alientated if she wanders off the beaten path.

I personally do not doubt Diana's validity as an improvisational jazz singer-pianist. I just wish all those millions who buy her albums and say "Diana Krall? Oh, I just love her music!" would take the time to go a wee bit deeper than the surface appeal.
"You never know when she's going to come in for an avocado." - Diana Krall, on The Late Late Show with Craig Kilborn
---
Steve Greenlee: Ali Larter, the actress who plays Niki on the show (Heroes), could be your twin sister. She looks just like you.

Diana Krall: Poor thing.
User avatar
jazzygal karla
Big Foot
Big Foot
 
Posts: 200
Joined: 23 May 2004, 09:36
Location: home


Return to Departure Bay

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests